Session 7B: Communication Strategies & Public Engagement

July 25, 2019 posted by

hello hi everyone welcome to your last session your last breakout session of the day is everyone feeling tired a little bit tired I feel like it's been an amazing amazing conference so much to take in and you get to the end and it's a little bit hard I think to open up some brain space for what remains but let's try to wipe the palate clean the intellectual palate clean try to keep some openness for what we have here today because we have some really good speakers and I'm really excited for them to be here my name is Carrie Hewlett I'm with the consensus-building Institute and also the Clemmie Gration Network which is a group of people who connect with each other on this topic so if you are interested in remaining in contact with others who want to continue talking about managed and unmanaged retreat then you can just go to our website at climb I Gration org and it's spelled as you would expect with the I instead of the a of I for migration instead of the a of climate right climb migration so we are going to kick it off today with our first speaker David Eisenhower and David I'll let you introduce yourself and jump into your presentation Thanks okay so thank you all for being here okay so thank you all for being here my name is David Eisenhower I'm at Rutgers University so what I'm going to talk about today is sort of a little bit of speculative of what I want to do so a lot of this is coming out of the research I did for my dissertation which I defend it so this is sort of thinking about what I want to do over the next couple of years and particularly thinking about more transformative adaptation that might occur in a new jersey shore region including a retreat so I want to begin this presentation with a brief sort of anecdote of a report about the future of New Jersey Shore and then I want to provide a little bit more what I mean by imaginaries and then talk a little bit more about how climate change has become part of the imaginary of the shore of New Jersey and then really dig into this concept that I'm referring to as imagine a fit and interplay so the report that I want to talk about it came out of a conference that was co-sponsored by Rutgers and the state government of New Jersey and I brought together policymakers at every level of the state from the governor's office to municipal officials apart together stakeholders coastal scientists and members of the public to discuss the future of New Jersey Shore and I just want to highlight an interesting quote which hopefully it's readable but there is a growing concern about the folly of developing on the shifting sands of the shore zone especially on our dynamic barrier islands inevitable sea level rise coastal erosion and westward migration of the barrier islands characterize the unstable nature of the shore zone is becoming increasingly clear to coastal managers and local decision-makers that their plans are effective only if they recognize the constructions of society and the shore zone will be encroached upon by the Shoreline attempts to stop these natural processes have been expensive in largely ineffectual so I use this quote sometimes when I'm teaching undergraduates and I often have them guess when this report was published which I didn't mention and to move quickly I'll just say in 1979 so a few other things that are interesting about this report that I just want to quickly highlight here so one of the recommendations move away from barrier islands so retreat from the most vulnerable places create plans that use disasters as a windows of opportunity so create plans that when something disaster strikes we can create new planning that's a sort of response to that experience and also the notion right that flood insurance is creating perverse incentives in the flood zone particularly in coastal areas by subsidizing development things that we've probably heard a lot about over the past couple days right so these are you know 40 years ago you know this is what this report found you know and again it brought together the right people it put the right people in the room and yet right despite this forty years knowing this you know developments continue to pace in new jersey in fact it's probably worse now than it was then a lot of different rating systems of coastal development for climate change constantly ranked new jersey is among the worst states in the country along with texas and places like Alabama much worse than neighboring states like New York or Maryland and another thing is a political support for retreat it's probably shrunk you know we're now a few years into Governor Murphy's administration so I don't want to maybe critique him too much but even that I find a little bit hard to imagine that he would put his name on a report that said we need to move away from bear islands as governor Byrne did 40 years ago so one of the things that I did in my dissertation is look at how this has happened right how have has development continued to pace in a coastal area where even longer than 40 years ago we knew this was a bad idea you know you can look at reports from the early 1920s that really highlights this problem coastal erosion so what I want to highlight is this notion of socio technical imaginaries it's developed by Sheila jasanoff and sort of this what she defines us as that collectively held institutionally stabilized and publicly performed visions of desirable futures animated by the shared understandings of forms of social life and social order order attainable through and supportive of advances in science and technology and so in the coastal area of New Jersey what I've really found is there's this idea that we can continue to protect private property through engineered solutions through public policy insurance schemes and so forth and really what needs to be protected is private property most and again this isn't necessarily a new notion that private property needs to be protected in New Jersey again you can read reports from the 60s and 70s maybe a few people are referred with Oren Pokey the coastal scientists who in the 1960s and 70s very dismissively referred to this as the new jersey a citation of the America's Shore but there's this idea that we can continue to protect private property through technology and so here we have a vision of Sea Bright which is at the very northern tip of the Jersey Shore so here we have a picture from 1950 you can't really tell in this picture but there is no shore in this picture and until about the early 1990s there was no shore and Sea Bright until the Army Corps of Engineers changed that and so now there is a shore but it takes constant maintenance and Seabright itself is a few miles long it does get a little bit lighter towards this southern end but not very much wider here we have in the 1920s Asbury Park a few of us might have been there no Shore in Asbury Park the state came in built these jetties and again we have a shore in Asbury Park today but again it relies heavily on beach nourishment so in the past couple decades more than a billion dollars in spent in New Jersey to nourish our beaches and the beaches typically only last a few years in this case earlier this year Point Pleasant New Jersey lost their Beach in a matter of a few months it washed away so this is a very short term solution so in this context I spent the last couple years talking to a lot of different municipal staff members and elected officials and none of them deny the reality of climate change a particularly I worked with municipalities that were targeted by initiatives to provide them with tailored and usable climate information so maybe it's not a surprise that they accept climate change they're very willing to talk about multiple feet of sea level rise happening over the coming decades and by the end of this century so they accept that climate change is happening yet they continue to think that coastal communities will continue to persist despite that reality again which they accept and so a lot of the people I spoke to sort of talked about the future as up in the air someone literally told me what their vision of the future is is up in the air and and so I was like well I guess this means they're not sure what the future will hold but I quickly realized actually they were being literal the future is up in the air for the Jersey Shore so they imagine right buildings are going to be elevated here we have a tower that's almost completed now in Asbury Park but even a more sort of extreme example of this is I spoke to some people working in on a barrier island community and they sort of imagined the raising of the entire island where every time a storm comes in and destroys buildings they'll be able not only to rebuild the buildings that are destroyed but every time that happens it's an opportunity to bring in more Phil to literally raise the elevation of the island so that over time every time I disaster strikes the island itself will become higher and so as I mentioned earlier these are communities that by and large were targeted for these sort of decision support initiatives with other nonprofits government agencies university initiatives to take you know climate science and tailor it to their needs and so there's a real rich literature and a really you know valuable literature and usable knowledge and how you can fit it to existing decision context and so it interplays favorably with existing knowledge systems and you know this I don't want to demean these projects they've been actually pretty successful again people accept climate change is real they're beginning to think at least about some incremental changes but when we're tailoring and translating you know this climate information to existing decision context and knowledge systems right there being also tailored and translated to these broader imaginaries right so this socio technical imaginary that imagines that technology either existing or future technology will allow these communities to persist at along with you know public policy like flood insurance and again you know to hark back to order to you know point backwards to 40 years ago right we can also understand that conference that brought together these stakeholders as these type of initiatives right it would sort of met many of these design ideas that we now advocate for in the present and despite it right developments continue apace and so a lot of the municipalities that I talked to there were you know some discussions of retreat in a very sort of background you know it wasn't something that people were excited to talk about for the most part and when retreat came up it sort of took two forms the first was an idea that yes proactive retreat is needed but it was just literally impossible for them to imagine how to implement it at least in the present or the short term a lot of times these discussions took the form of what we referred to as NIM – which stood forward not in my term of office so elected officials would not you know create retreat policies because they be elected or they they wouldn't win reelection and there's a little bit haziness to that that I can maybe talk about later and the other was this sense that retreat would happen once and only once property had no value so eventually property won't have any value at and people would move away from the coast right probably not the most desirable form of retreat so instead right largely incremental adaptations are being suiting and again I don't want to completely dismiss these as not valuable right it's it's better than nothing and so I write this is taking the form of elevating houses resilient infrastructure and some Dumon and marsh restoration but these type of ecosystem products projects typically take the form of something as seen in this picture right words immediately next to a hard structure right so these aren't dunes or marshes that have the ability to retrieve backwards or inland as risings the sea level rises so right these are very short-term solutions where they're not gonna be able to deal with long-term sea levels and so there's a real risk I think of these type of incremental adaptations leading to path dependencies there's a really great article below minute all about this and this is you know sunk costs and so forth but there's also this risk I think of sort of mental and imaginative lock-in so this sort of persistence of these maladaptive imaginaries and this has led me to sort of think about beyond informational fit and interplay to sort of how knowledge about climate change interplays and fits within these type of imaginaries so I sort of have again this is where I my research is becoming a little bit more speculative and forward-thinking of what I want to do is developing this notion of imagine of 15 injured play so this purpose here is to help guide and design conducting of collaborative knowledge production initiatives so the type that these municipalities have been participating in and with the explicit goal of helping to catalyze transformational pathways of change so not just these are incremental so what I talk about imagine of fit I'm referring to how marriage is about climate change resonate within already existing senses of belongings or the norms imaginaries that structure these sort of individual and collective behavior identity and values so these already ongoing stories which in part reflects that existing socio technical imaginary but it could have includes some others so partially this build off of the work of the political scientists William Connolly and he refers to belonging as the feeling of comfort that comes with a sense of layered fit between self and world between collectivity and world it's nice to sort of see this as dealing with what vielen dat all referred to as a narrative gap of climate change by composing information that weaves into these pre-existing cultural narratives and meta-narratives about how the world works and where it's heading interplay on the other hand I see as resonating with emerging and often Inco hate and very frequently just organized movements of denormalization of becoming or something that's trying to create something fundamentally new that already exists in these communities but again it's very disorganized so in New Jersey some of the things that I've come across right is restoration of habitat effort so there's a lot going on again it's done in a way that's often framed as protecting private property but there's some people who aren't particularly keen on that fights for against oceanfront development for public access concerns about wildlife from work generally and you know some growing again very very disorganized movements calling for coastal retreat so how do we develop knowledge that interplays with that and so you know there's obviously some tensions here right too much imagine if it might reinforce these unsustainable and unjust socio-technical imaginaries and too much imaginative interplay might fail to gain a foothold and prevailing practices in there just right if it's too new there's too radical right it might not gain purchase in these communities and I think I'll leave it at this because I'm about out of time and again returning to William Connelly right so I think you know this quote kind of highlights a lot of what I'm trying to get at here right today the question becomes how to Reno be renegotiated persistent tensions between freedom and belonging during error when fateful and intersections between the social organization of life and planetary processes with their own power have again become so palpable so in these coastal areas right there's significant tensions between individual goals and you know collective well-being between humans and sort of these broad or non-human forces and you know I think exploring these tensions can tend lead to creativity and can lead to some transformative change and hopefully thank you thank you David that was really really interesting what a beautiful presentation so Kelly are you calling now you're gonna join or just Kelly all right so we've got Kelly main in Colin Chan and I'll let them introduce themselves so that was right great thank you hi my name is Colleen and this is Kelly and we've been working on our project together called East e4 EC a toolkit for engaging communities on managed retreat and so I guess I'll talk a little bit about that so traditional managed retreat projects do not often take into consideration community coherence or can be agency and redesigning the coastline so iqe based managed retreat dialogue and design process is a viable first step in climate adaptation so that's where our project is kind of situated easy for eesti is our project between being partners and our planners to co-create a toolkit to discuss long-term climate impacts and manage retreat in East Boston so we're here today to talk about the tools that we've been working on in order to begin a conversation with community with community members before disasters occur but before we get to that I wanted to take a bit of time to share my very abbreviated thesis I just finished and it was on this conversation between around manager treat and social justice so before you see me I want to introduce why this project that we're doing is a really important example of just process for anticipatory managed retreat so when we talk about retreat and also other planning processes we often hear things like having hard conversations is hard public officials might even say that they can't have these difficult conversations that this is understandable from officials it might be an impossibility due to political or financial reasons and for others it could be easier death threats anger passionate reactions from a number of key members that threatened the communities right to place sense of belonging and maybe even their core identities the point I want to emphasize at the beginning here is not that talking about retreat is easy but because it isn't but it doesn't have to be as hard as we think it is and one of the ways that it can be less hard is by reframing the way that we have conversations with folks in the early Freight phases of of climate adaptation work and to focus the conversation around issues that matter to them which is about the present about asking people about how they feel what they value what they're concerned about and what their vision is for the future um but first the literature but actually the language that is used to define retreat is really important so I looked at a whole bunch of definitions for manager tree and I found some pretty interesting things and there's a lot of implications around justice because of these definitions so among all the definitions that I kind of looked at there's an absence of a universal agreement about what mana tree is so among mountains academics and even practitioner based documents there's no really like cohesive understanding of manage retreat and most fundamentally magic tree definitions don't Center on people so of the definitions I looked at only half of them use the word relocation referring to a place where people can go to and also only two of the definitions I looked at even mention people at all in the definition so people are not universally centered in the definitions of managed retreat which reveals why it is so difficult to analyze let alone implement retreat through the lens of equity injustice so how can a process be just if it doesn't center around communities so in talking about justice kind of talking about things that are brought about by grassroots and movement organizations so climb justice alliance or n-double-a-cp and both recognize that justice requires a just transition that it is about the process as it is about the outcomes and both recognize that justice requires that we are conscientious of our past and present and to practice that for creating the future so this is also emphasized in 2016 EPA report that says that you know there's four different ways to achieve justice meaningful involvement and procedural justice distributional justice justice of capabilities and recognition of justice which I'm going to fly by because but that can be summarized in a couple of actions and this is what I say are the critical components of justice that we can ask of a process so a process that is explicit in the recognition of historic neglect or systemic disadvantages so why people are where they are creating tools for co-creation and shared ownership vision and metric creation with with effective community members and the use of an unhurried deeply democratic engagement process and papaw's it's imperative that we realized that there's currently a deep disconnect about Understanding between just of justice between climate adaptation planning and these grassroots organizations so practitioners tend to lean towards emphasizing use of indicators social vulnerability indexes data metrics etc whereas organizers use process driven actions such as power building relationship building addressing past harms and this this language of transformational change so maybe my thesis basically argues for our ricans centralization a Manor treat towards the goal of achieving justice in a managed treat process so our current practice manager tree conceptualizes is conceptualized as a focus on how to achieve an outcome by only assessing the current and future state so what needs to be done is what facility is facilitating that transition so easement setbacks buyouts so this framework leaves out the opportunity create a process that is in line with the language of justice and practice of designing for the margins so a major failure of retreat as it is conceptualized today is that the language places itself in direct conflict with the language of social justice so justice is about a just process whereas magistrate is about an outcome justice is about the present magistrate is about the future justice about how she changed the present because of historic practice and manager tree is about how to move from the present to a future state because of a future problem justice about collective and systemic liberation and retreat is mostly implemented at an individual or household level hand justice about power building agency and ownership where the man Street is about being managed so justice demands that we move away from that definition and implement tools that are embedded and these ideas are just so we already went there so it's about how we got here where we are and where we going and so this is what my thesis poses which is that we use our tools as a way of of supporting managing of a retreat process that answers these questions in using late recognition Allah justice procedural justice and distributional justice which is like creating all these different powers in the community so this is just summarizing it's all aligned and if we use the critical components of justice that I identified before and some of the critical components of manager treat that we understand having a location for people to go to making sure that there are the right actors making sure there's a vision for the future for what's left behind and having the right time scale then we can align the goals of both mandatory and justice so where does easy for you see fit so our project is really focused on procedural justice so we there are a number of tools planning tools that can be used to kind of align these two things together and our project is really focused on how to create this aspirational of managing a process by creating think easement tools and methods that we need in order to ask those questions so easy for eesti if you recognized by the title takes place in East Boston and East Boston is historically a community of sorry immigrants and today about 58 percent of residents identify as Hispanic or Latino and only 31% of the population speak English alone this gateway community faces many environmental justice issues related to its proximity to industrial ports such as Boston Logan Airport as well as the legacies of heavy industrial activity and like many coastal areas of the US Boston is experiencing a number of extreme climate events almost every year but in recent years including a series of devastating winter storms and by 2070 50 % of East Boston will be in the 100-year flood zone this is a photo this is town on right yeah so this is a photo of one of our teammates who's a resident of East Boston kayaking through the streets of downtown East Boston two years ago during a winter storm event and some households an East 'i can feel this today not just because of flooding but by seeing their flood insurance premiums triple in the last five years alone and to make matters more complicated in East Boston eesti is one of the most rapidly changing neighborhoods in the city it's currently projected to receive almost 20% of all housing units built in Boston by 2030 this increasing housing demand is it's a Sur baiting housing burden for residents today we're 43 percent of households already paid more than 30 percent of their income for housing so eesti residents are already finding it difficult to access affordable housing options and these pressures will only increase due to the impacts of climate change so with these two threats a lack of affordable housing in addition to environmental risk we've been asking the question where should I see residents Joe Willie ste residents want to move and if so where might they want to do so the project we've been working on that calling introduces tall easy for East D a community toolkit for managed retreat and it centers around four pillar pillars we've been employing a participate participatory design process with a number of community partners to toe create design and policy proposals that eesti can use to be their stay in place preserve or increase housing availability and also minimize climate related risk so in addition to talking with a community about their vision for the future we're also engaging in a deeply iterative and experimentation ille de zine process on our own team constantly reflecting on what we did and updating our tools to add out to the feedback we're receiving from the community and just to reassess quickly what Colleen was mentioning we see the work that we're doing in East you for East E as an extension of this procedural justice framework so explicit recognition were very focused on the community that we're talking to all of the information that we have available is bilingual to the English and in Spanish there showed shared ownership we are partnering with local organizations co-creation of vision means that we have interactive design and games for multiple users of different ages and backgrounds and deep democracy and unhurried engagement which means that we're asking the questions that people have now rather than responding to an event in the future so we have developed a bunch of different engagement tools and Holly will go through these in a minute but broadly speaking we have low commitment and passive activities for general learning and education and we also have high commitment high learning more active tools as well which Tony and I won't go over all right all right so yes very quickly one of the things that we focused on is having tools that were focused on education information so on our website and at our events we had multi information on the basics of manager tree and some case studies so these are just an introduction for people to understand where we are coming from and just a general education about why this might be considered so this is like very high-level understanding of manager tree he also did asset mapping so we're meant to events or detailing we showed folks the flood plain Maps and asked them to identify the places in East Boston that they care about to build awareness around vulnerabilities and risks around their homes but also around places that are important to them and we also had this as an online tool as well in the right corner we went through emergency preparedness situations and a lot of people had a lot of questions around around this and people shared a lot of their experiences and also had really great questions and thoughts as a result of us asking them about what they would consider doing during an emergency situation we also experimented with different values based questions like scenarios which got at trade-offs between different adaptation options such as you know where would they with a chica bio or would they stay in place all of that stuff we had car cam it was about collective action we have one minute left so we're gonna go through this really quickly made a 3d model and we thought it was really helpful for people to think about the spatial consequences of retreat it was very low cost and we built it using very low cost tools and we had met met at magnetic blocks for people to move around and there's different ways to play this game in order to get at these different questions that people are considering for both themselves at for the future we do a lot of things when we learned a lot of stuff would you like to trust really comes first so we've been doing this for a year but we will continue as we build relationships with other organizations learning along the way is really important and about new ideas and we don't really know what works and how to talk to people we must constantly be iterating and people do really respond to concerns about the present and people want to know what starting to happen in the future based off of how they're feeling in the present so for any questions that way is really helpful um and the other thing we did meet with the city of Boston and they said oh you know we know we should be doing this but we can't have that conversation people don't want to talk about that when we went to the community we found out that that's actually not the case so if they're not afraid of having the conversation why are we as officials and planners and then it was we realize it was a lot easier to talk about retreat as a collective problem as well rather than an individual problem so if you frame it as a community problem something about making those decisions together builds a collective agency that people are much more willing to talk about and lastly Matt retreat is a really new concept for people on the ground so got to build those relationships understand and talk about the present concerns and keep asking these questions and changing the questions and figure out what's happening on the ground in order to have this dialogue thank you thank you Colleen and Kelly um we did learn a lot of stuff it's really good no thank you it's really big we're gonna go next to joshua Vincenzo and he's at the earth Institute of Columbia so thank you Joshua okay well thank you everybody and I want to congratulate you two for making it to the end of the third day here of our retreat of our conference here on managed retreat my name is Josh T Vincenzo I'm going to be focusing our time and I'm really glad that I actually get to have this conversation on the tail and now that we've acquired new information that I'm sure we're very eager to go out and share potential collaborations future papers that I'm sure will lead to exceptional work but I want to address a group that's not in the room and a group that hasn't been in the room past three days and that's the group of people that are very far removed from ideas of manage retreat and the concepts of managed retreat in an perhaps might be still grappling with the ideas of global warming and that is going to be a public focus on how we can design these tools for climate change risk communications for the public learning needs and capacities at the National Center of disaster preparedness I work as an instructional designer on several curriculum based projects around economic recovery and housing recovery and we have a really distinct privilege of spending time with the American public on these very difficult concepts so we get to really gauge what is working and what could be improved from an educational standpoint around what will eventually be this collective action in response but however we do like to focus more on the preparedness side of that aspect we also work with a robust we also work with a robust web-based and distant training program where we're focused on the individual learner and their relationship with technology but with technology we have a very nice luxury of when we do something incorrectly or we take something too far I was hoping I got the alert off of during my presentation the first time you ever hope for a technical difficulty but here are some but technology is able to tell us in our own language and very succinctly what is going unfortunately we climate this message for better for worse does not does not exist instead we have the climate that shows us its power it shows us what it's capable to do and oftentimes these extreme events that are happening with more and more frequency and then for the American public this is often the symbolism if they don't have the climate science with background to give explanations to these events so I want to step back before addressing potential recommendations for a pedagogy for managed retreat and talk first about climate change in the American American concern so though I'm going to cite in these next two slides to from from a report out of Yale and George Mason it is called climate change in the American mind I suggest it I thought you are going to be engaging the public and further initiatives around managed retreat I'm going to share just some highlights from from the report here one finding was that most Americans think that global warming is relatively just a relatively distant threat although a growing percentage are becoming are coming to understand it harms people to call us on this on this chart here in in response to the question how much do you think global warming will harm you personally is a very small percentage we see that 12% and 20% believe that global warming will cause a great deal of harm at a moderate or or a great a level there and then on the other end of a higher percentage we see 70% that are in agreement that future generations will be harmed by global warming these are both from an education and instructional standpoint very important findings the fact that at a personal level the perceived harm is relatively low is an obstacle when it when it comes to designing learning initiatives and interventions and then future generations is also a abstract concept because these future generations are either materializing now or are far off so to educate to an abstract concept as we we see with themes of climate change is pretty difficult the next one is that fewer than half Americans hear about global warming in the me or from people they know at least once a month I'm not going to address the media information just right now because that would be a completely different conversation and probably its own conference but I'm gonna focus more on climate change in American discourse so we see an alarming statistic there that 68% are fall in the categories of never several times a year or once a year to the question of I hear people I know talking about global warming so there is this gap on that it hasn't yet entered into public discourse public conversation so ideas of manager treat do become a little bit more difficult to communicate so I will admit I am a representative of the adult learning community and I will also be the first one to admit that we do a very poor job of sharing our theories and theoretical frameworks especially in times where they could be of valuable use so I'm going to share one theoretical framework with you today that has a potential for application in any type of training and this is going to be Knowles's four principles of andragogy he refers to andragogy instead of what some of us may be familiar with us pedagogy by making the distinction that adults do indeed learn differently than children we have to be very cognizant of this series of the fact that often times when we were tasked to design an educational experience will replicate I came through 12 classrooms we're all a little bit guilty of doing that so the four principles and I'll explain why in a brief analysis of why they're in different colors the first one here is that adults need to be involved into the planning and evaluation of their instruction in the context of managers sheet this is a little bit difficult in the current state as if 68% are not even talking or hearing about global warming inviting them to the table to plan and evaluate their potential instruction around manage retreat is very difficult the next one would be experience provides the basis for learning activities we find that this is both a good thing and a bad thing at times adults bring a reservoir of knowledge with them so for example if they have an experience flooding for for example they might have a difficult time conceptualizing rising sea-levels adults are also more interested in learning subjects that have immediate relevance to their professional and personal lives I'm gonna spend some more time on that specific point in the next few slides and then the last problem the last principle that's here in the purple is that adult learning is problem centered rather than content oriented and this is a really good call-out but unfortunately what this one takes is the actual event to occur beyond the problem to be here in the present before this becomes a strategy although for the academic community this would be a great strategy for any type of multidisciplinary work that would come out of different different disciplines so to break that down in just very simple themes to any type of adult education initiative should have involvement experience relevance and be problem centered so I'm gonna talk a little bit about the narrative that we've seen at the National Center disaster preparedness we've been on at the work in terms of learning in terms of Education on disaster preparedness for quite a while these are some numbers from our learning management system and a learning management system is simply just where we house a lot of our web-based content so you can see we do have a significant amount of growth year to year with 2017 even hitting four thousand and nine unique registrants but the takeaway here is that our since then our priorities from a learning management standpoint so I've shifted so in 2016 we actually stopped adding new courses there hasn't been any comprehensive marketing campaign to engage learners and bring them to this learning management system it's just pretty much stagnant standing there yet in 2017 we have four thousand and nine new users and 2018 three thousand six hundred and six new users why this might be of course there's been no stoppage of natural disasters or events that would want communities and learners to prepare more so these are just a list some this isn't an all-encompassing list but this does give some explanation to why the demand for this type of training this type of learning is and increasing year to year for the most part so a closer look of some of the strategies of applying some of Knowles's principles to our work and the National Center we had a course out it was called the nurses role and climate change and when you have these types of deliberate and intentional learning interventions you you have the opportunity to really embed perceptional questions so we we evaluated on the question this course improved my understanding of climate change so we got two metrics out of that one was the course effective in its instruction but also was there any agreement on climate change as a concept and as you saw briefly in the earlier charts getting strong agreement on any type of perceptional question perceptual question around climate change is pretty difficult although we were able to report that 81 percent felt in the strongly agree to agree 3% and strongly disagree to disagree and 16 percent were neutral just to show that in a different visualization that we have this here it is important to note that this is very this is what in the Kirkpatrick model of learning evaluation this would be a level 1 so we're just looking at the attitudes of of learning so despite this being a pretty decent win in terms of attitudes there does need to be further work to see in terms of competency as well as behavioral shifts that occurred because of a course designated for the nurses role in climate change so with that I'm going to just briefly walk through early recommendations for a pedagogy on manage retreat the first would be understanding the way in which the public engages and disengages with information so I'm sure on that title screen there might have been some some laughs that there was a beer and that was an article called don't save the planet for the planet save it for the beer just understanding the different modes so I know at this conference for example we've seen a lot of clips of news articles we have to be aware that not everybody necessarily will read those new types of news articles again I wasn't going to get into the media subject in this talk so I'm going to move on to number two that's going to be collect and analyze data with a learning man system that is uh purposely in parentheses because you don't necessarily need a fancy learning management system but anytime that you have these touch points with the public where you are getting more more knowledge and insight around their perceptions of ideas of climate change of managers treat be sure to be recording that and holding on to that over the years number three would be create learning experiences that facilitate self-referential processing ie professions so this was going back to what we found with the climate change course deliberately focused on the nurses role by focusing on their profession going back to Knowles that had relevance to their professional lives and and/or personal lives we were able to see the results of agreement that this clot that climate change and how we instructed climate change was effective so if we can create that self-referential processing and this also will go back to the point that we do have a very low percentage of people that could perceive climate change as a personal harm perhaps because there has been not this personalized approach the fourth point would be prepared instead of react to retreat within communities once we once they're in the process of the action of a retreat the learning process is going to become quite significantly more difficult you're going to have people that are in a sense of turmoil that are are going to really be approaching any type of training with tunnel vision opposed to really trying to adopt and and internalize that any information that you're sharing the the fifth point would be leverage formal and informal learning opportunities so then any any training around retreat and that's doesn't necessarily need to occur in this classroom we saw for example that there's such a high percentage of people that are not even talking about global warming share the information about this conference of course in your professional circles your your your your scholarly circles but also share it and in more of those familiar personal circles as well just two tips to make some traction there and more of an informal learning environment and the last one is understand learning profile of vulnerable and historically underserved populations it looks like EC and EC you guys are doing a fantastic job of doing that of really taking into account who you're working with are there language barriers what's the educational background that there isn't going to necessarily be on one size fit fits all on this um I'm going to stop here and if there's any questions I'd be happy to feel them thank you you guys will just wait does anyone have a question for Josh of a couple more minutes can you use the mic so everyone can hear you thanks there was an educational theorist about ten years ago our Larry Cuban who who suggested that learning with technology is primarily focused on efficiency rather than transformational learning I was wondering if well for Josh and the other groups as well if there's any new technologies that you think are transformational in terms of having people reconceive of their sea level rise and their reaction to it yeah I think that's an excellent question in technology as was mentioned in the the distance learning program is really opening doors to a new audience around around these themes on specific to sea level rise and some technologies in that regard I think there's a lot in terms of the GIS mapping tools if we were able to really manage them in a way that's more accessible to a larger group of people so if someone is staring at a GIS GIS map at the for the first time ever will they be able to navigate and get the data points that they need and I think there are technologies out there right now like I like a walk like a walk mean type of technology that could really go from point A to point B in terms of the mapping technology tools and so anybody can use them I think that's a gap and a huge opportunity to address anything around us of sea level rise for the public that's great thank you so much' next up we have Ellis calvin with our PA thanks Alice oh great they thank you everyone for for being here I'm else Calvin updated research manager with the Regional Plan Association and what I am hoping to get out with this presentation is one of the points that all that Suzanne mozar made it in the opening plenary yesterday about starting a conversation as soon as possible in any way possible so we can and using that to buy time and think of this as part of a longer-term and thinking of this as a longer-term a longer-term process so I'm going to talk about the kind of context at which that regional plan associate Association we're coming to this with the thinking of adaptation toolbox and then talk about a case study of one particular project where we helped a couple of communities develop long term adaptation visions so to give some backgrounds the Regional Plan Association were a nearly 100 year old nonprofit organization in the the New York tri-state region we were dedicated making making the region a more equitable sustainable prosperous and healthy and healthy place and it's it's our business to to deal with the kind of the urban and environmental systems that cross municipal and state boundaries understanding that it's that it's all connected we about once-in-a-generation we formulate these long-term plans we just completed our fourth regional plan in 2017 and I think it's fair to say that there's no issue that looms larger than climate change in in this particular plan so we've been doing a lot of work around different aspects of of climate change adaptation everything from building climate change adaptation capacity to looking at the adapting coastal ecosystems looking at regional governance models and resilience funding and and of course retreat and I think I don't I don't need to tell anyone here this that the complete adaptation toolbox must include retreat but I might reframe that for this audience that I think in order to talk about managed retreat it should be in the context of a complete adaptation toolbox and I think that's important for for reasons that we'll get into in a bit so I think when you know when when we talk about managed retreat and we look at the kind of examples that that we have to point to the case studies things like Staten Island which this is a photo it's you know even even in these what we think of as somewhat successful case studies it's it's not a very inspirational vision and it's and it's hard so it's hard to get that that conversation started with other communities when when this is kind of the what you know could be the future of of their community so I think when you put it in the context of a larger adaptation toolbox about looking at how how managed retreat can be combined with other types of strategies whether it's wetlands restoration or or other types of infrastructure whether it's you know flood hazard mitigate flood mitigation infrastructure or new kinds of amenities you can you can start to create a more inspirational vision that makes it easier to to get the conversation started even if even if it's a vision that you know radically transforms the community or even unrecognizably transforms it's still something potentially inspiring so like so in in the work we've done around manager treat there's some you know principles for lack of a better word that we've that we've developed I think the first one you know not as much recently but certainly a few years ago there were a lot of questions about why why are you talking about retreat and I think it's because as we've as we've heard a lot that in many places the alternative to manage retreat is unmanaged retreat also that the manager treats should be thought of more of a long-term adaptation strategy rather than than a short-term recovery strategy so bringing the timeline into decades instead of months or years there must be community driven and not imposed occurs coerced often been asked by by colleagues and other people in the planning world you know oh can you know do you have a map showing areas that they should retreat and the answer is no because we're not in a position to tell communities what they should or shouldn't do it should be more providing the resources for them to make their own decisions and then it I think critically must be integrated to a lot into a broader planning strategy involving communities outside the flood zone and in you know integrated into other planning aspects like affordable housing and environmental conservation and and certainly that the existing programs and institutions are not equipped to deal with a scale that's going to be needed over there the coming decades so so now to focus in particular on one on one project and the kind of community engagement process that that we developed there was I think very helpful and getting the conversation started about managed retreat so we in partnership with Lincoln Institute for land policy one aspect that it's one of the things that we don't know as we're addressing already vulnerable marshes is whether for example the application of thin layers of sediment are actually giving that giving existing marshes that are at risk of drowning Elektra elevation really will work and for how long and where so because we can you can add elevation we can add six inches a clean sand onto an existing marsh that's at risk of being drowned in place but we don't know essentially whether we'll be able to weather that will sort of prime that marsh system to be able to and build elements and start to continue to accrete how long that will be and if we have marshes that are drowning in the place doesn't really matter if we've got adjacent area to which they can migrate because losing the bulk of the marsh in benefit and then in I think we've got examples in New York City where we've got pretty low sandy out coastal plain wash environments or we can easily imagine the migration happening as we would like to see this project scrub under on sandy a different terrain six feet and probably much sooner than that and the second community was nasty Beach on Long Island's Jersey constancy is still facing a lot of flooded areas that six feet of sea level rise but but they're still you know quite a bit of upland area including their their downtown commercial area and as you can imagine both both cities were both from both towns were hit very hard by Sandy and and the process afterwards was was very confusing and frustrating for many residents and and kind of led to mix mixed results in terms of how you know resilience in mastic beach for example there was a by a program offered but because of the timing and some other bureaucratic issues many many people – already taken money for elevations and and so they weren't then eligible for the bio program so you have areas like this where you have some elevated homes next to no home haven't been elevated even with the elevated homes you still have septic systems that are that are in the you know flood prone areas because most of the villages not sewer and so in you know some of the so so we heard in some of the initial meetings and workshops we heard about the kinds of issues that they were facing and the frustrations they were having was you know becoming more resilient and I think one one interesting anecdote is that that we heard the from one resident that even if they had to wade through water to get to their to get to their home once a week that that was still acceptable twice a week also also fine three days a week that was where the line was hot I think now that was illustrative that you know going into communities we can't assume what the what the threshold is for you know what people can accept and I think that also points to in order to to keep certain things that they you know appreciate about why you know why they live where they live they might be willing to change to to change other aspects of their life in order to preserve those so that was something that we that we kept in mind so the question was how do we like start this conversation around long-term adaptation including managed retreat and I think there are a lot of challenges a few things are more emotionally charged as as we all know planning there was a lot of planning fatigue they already had you know several plans that they had been developed and were sitting on shelves because they had no real direction on how to implement them the long-term timeframe was challenging both because it's hard you know to think it's kind of abstract to thinking those in that long-term timeframe and also because you know you don't know what kinds of funding or what kind of programs will be available in 20 or 30 or 40 years and so it's hard to you know be concrete about what kinds of things you want in that time frame the planning for uncertainty not knowing whether three feet of sea level rise is going to happen in 25 50 hundred years and all the the challenges around that and then that these are complex strategies so that you know not necessarily difficult to understand they just take time to understand that there's a lot a lot to understand so we developed kind of game I'll try to go through this quickly so we condensed a lot of the types and different types of strategies down to and place them on cards we had a timeline 50-year timeline that these were where we placed down their cards and certain time scales and there was a kind of budgeting mechanism to in order to create some prioritization we also included the kind of the proposed projects the projects are already in planning on to the time timeline so you could you could see the kind of broader direction a map is a community with three feet of sea-level rise for more illustrative purposes and then we had disruption cards which I won't get into for the time interest but I think it's meant to mention at the beginning too we also at before we started the game the first the first thing we did was ask for for the communities to go for the workshop participants to describe their vision what what they wanted the community to to be like given the reality so at 3 feet of sea level rise at this if this whole area is is under water what then do you want the community to look like and so then we were able to use those strategy cards to kind of get to that vision it was interesting the there were very different outcomes in the different that the different workshops when we broke out into different sections which I'll get into in a bit so we took those results and even even in cases where they were not things that we you know we would have then we wouldn't necessarily recommend it ourselves we thought it was very important to know the faithful faithfully represent what what the vision that the groups came up with but we also that was important to be realistic so for example with this with this team that had a more kind of engineered vision of the future where they were kind of almost doubling down on the development along the waterfront we also had a point you know wanted to point out that this might involve lots of pumping stations in order to keep the water out as the area became lower and lower below sea level rise then you know there's an environment more environmental vision that you know saw the advantages of of you know managed retreat and all the kinds of other things you could do with that like wetlands restoration becoming an environmental showcase and even maybe using that as a kind of economic driver for like ecotourism and this was just kind of a frame a framework we happen in order to I'll wrap up real quickly the the decisions don't have to be made right now they can be they can be based on decision points in the future based on things like the rate of sea level rise but that it's important to think about what the kinds of possibilities are now so you know there are things that should be started in the near term other things that can wait and and be made down the line as long as they're you know being being thought of and then very quickly so the the the last thing we we did after we presented these scenarios was asked as the participants to envision themselves in this future the in these scenarios that we described and write a postcard to a friend or family member they hadn't been in the town in a long time and unfortunately for time I can't you know we can't read these but there was some some very poignant you know postcards that and that people will and very quickly so to wrap up I mean I think it's important that that we don't avoid the complexity that we treat this as an a to exchange knowledge and create more expertise both among the both among planners and the community that we don't avoid the uncertainty and it said embrace that and show the different alternatives which I think can create more inspiration and that we don't don't avoid this kind of emotional response instead we we use it constructively thank you thank you us sorry we didn't have time to read those postcards it's really interesting so Cameron Wake and Julia Peterson with UNH and Joe is with the New Hampshire Sea Grant as well so thanks for being with us you guys all right well so thanks for sticking around ok I know you know me don't you ok I'm gonna stand here I'm gonna try my best so I just wanted to ask how many of you saw our applied theater undercurrents yesterday all right excellent so we're going to talk a lot about that we're going to talk a little bit about our motivation a little bit about the process and a little bit about what the next steps are the one thing I want to implore you to do is to fill out the survey that is already in your email box because we really want to learn from this experience and one of the things we're hoping we're doing is developing a model and Alice I've never met you before I've never seen your work before but I could not imagine better set up for our talk is that how is it that we get the conversation started and so what I want to do is start off with just a little bit of the motivation and another little interactive question how many of you have had a less than sacked less than satisfactory interaction with print or television or radio media all right so I'm going to share one of my experiences that helped motivate this work we just finished the New Hampshire costal risk and hazard Commission we've been three years working on a topic 37 members 35 unanimous recommendations and I went in to talk to our local editorial board and sort of wrapped my answers in all this nuance based on my 15 years of learning about climate communication and here's what the headline was UNH climatologist sella portland south end homes now I think we can all agree this is not a way to start a conversation of a managed retreat this went over like a lead balloon with all of the local realtors I stopped doing presentations I sort of hid from the media for a while and so there was a there was a motivation of this and many other things but part of the notion here is this is this is not how we start the conversation we have to be thinking differently first time I've shared that myself publicly is still painful but sort of building on the challenge that Ellis has presented and that we mentioned yesterday right is if we really want to start having these difficult conversations we really have to begin to identify multiple perspectives unmanage retreat if we want to somehow get to that place where have these productive conversations that maybe not lead to solutions but at least to a range of different strategies and part of our ability to move forward on this Julian I honor and our power play partners was that were part of this organization called a New Hampshire coastal adaptation workgroup we've been around for 10 years now we were formed after New Hampshire Road its climate action plan and in response to that plan and its really so a group of 20 different entities from municipal representatives to university faculty to Wow for university faculty to engineers to regional planners and to state and federal representatives so there was a place for us to actually experiment with a group of trusted partners and this really sort of allowed us I think to pursue this idea and Julie was just thing on the on the bus ride down here it's like can you believe we've come this far in a year but in part because it's we have this really strong support system so we looked at applied theater and I do want to mention that the reason we even knew to engage this group was that they do professional development trainings on all kinds of topics anything that involves difficult human interactions for example they do trainings on bias they do trainings on holding public meetings facilitating police interactions with the public so those kinds of things so we knew that applied theater might be an appropriate tool for us to sort of combine these what we knew about risk assessment and vulnerable areas what we wanted to know more about in terms of human behaviors and interactions and then we have that engagement piece of connecting with our communities on with these – with these elements okay so one thing about applied theatre is that it the the purpose really was to provide a safe space for us to sort of observe a conversation before we have it so that's really the idea and then – through through that that observation and then the subsequent interaction that you folks participated in generate generates empathy helps us to promote to think about right I hope we were thinking about like I know someone like that or I am like that right expose a range of perspectives and to explore in some of the models there's there's there's actually much more dialogue between the characters this this model uses a monologue type of approach but again to explore the potential for social interactions and provide that rehearsal right for the future of how things might look when people share what's in their hearts and their heads in terms of the process that we used once we we got that CBI grant we that that enabled us to for the powerplay team actually to conduct interviews and I think that's kind of important because you know I come from a world where I often work with social scientists and we go three and AA through an IRB and stuff and we thought about should we shouldn't we and they're like no this is art right we don't we don't need to do that we're collecting this interview these interviews and this information for a different reason although in the future there's a likelihood that we will probably try to to learn more that we can generalize from in terms of conducting some social science however so we knew we needed to interview scientists civic leaders and residents you probably recognize those characters and also boundary spanners and I will admit that most of many of the people in this room most of our call group the group that Cameron mentioned we actually live in that realm of boundary spanner where we are trying that's our job is to connect scientists civic leaders and and residents was a matter of taking those interviews and creating them creating scripts and developing characters with them and then we were able to pilot our initial version with again with that call group and there's there are no shrinking violence among that group so I got some great feedback about things we may want to tweak and we're always gathering that or can we continue to gather that as we do these debut whereas we have these debuts so this was our first national debut last Friday was our first regional debut at the Maine and New Hampshire beaches conference so we're hoping this is a good model but again sort of fill out that little survey and let us know we've gotten some good feedback so far so for me from there the input we got so far there's this notion that we really need to broaden the scope to include more perspectives I realized actually that I was listening to the opening session Wednesday night we've developed a monologue that's a but a bunch of privileged white people in coastal New Hampshire and they we might want to broaden that out a little bit more to have some perspectives and there are other in spective perspectives that were we're interested in pursuing perhaps there might be somebody that's more sort of there's some bigger financial pressure or FEMA representative or so there's money introduced into the monologue so that sort of hits the second one as well we want to expand the conversation to address equity and environmental justice issues that's come in so if we knew that but that's really been reinforced by what we've heard a lot about during this conference we want to scale up in terms of capacity so we want to be you know sort of more perspectives but perhaps more actors and then we want to figure out how it is we transfer this to different audiences in different regions so we don't want to scale up and make their production bigger but we want to be able to do it in many other locations and so if you're in a place where you think you would benefit from this please feel free to get a hold of us when they don't immediately want to evaluate the effectiveness not only of the undercurrents itself so is it promoting more productive convert conversations is it leading to acts but also thinking about evaluating this art science approach and we're pursuing that from two different perspectives sort of is engaging the arts in science sort of broadening their capacity and is sort of taking a science message to the arts actually improving the communication and the engagement associated with with the scientific information so I think with their will stop and we just had I could we got time for we got time for questions and so let's take a couple questions and if if you don't ask us questions we're going to ask you questions thank you so much so it's so interesting I have a question actually about you know what are the what are some of the bases of knowledge that we can think about for engaging with people so maybe not just connecting with science but also thinking about other forms of knowledge like traditional knowledge for thinking about climate change and that that you know climate science isn't the only way to know climate change and it's not also maybe not the only way that we can engage with people so I'd love to know sort of if you have any thoughts on on how you could kind of broaden the base of knowledge when you're when you're thinking about these engagements so two ways I can think of one is I think we've included that in our model with this notion of we never told the actors what they should do but they went out and did the interviews so to start with we're actually asking them to go and find out sort of these local sources of knowledge and so I forget what all the questions were but there were questions along is sort of you know have you been have you been flooded what did you do during that flood so that sort of local understanding of vulnerability and then if we are successful at sort of scaling this up we would think that those sort of indigenous ways of knowing would be a really important area that we'd have to pursue and and again I see doing that as opposed to doing a whole bunch of research is having having people connect us to those audiences and having them sort of tell us what their perspective is instead doing the research so I think our character Jim Jimmy represent did he not represent traditional knowledge in a way certainly no unsophisticated way but the local knowledge in the local experience in addition to so in terms of what we think about is the scientific knowledge I'm thinking particularly about risk assessments right we typically come into a community show them show the community leaders these are your risk maps this is where you can anticipate flooding in 2050 this is where you can anticipate flooding in 2100 and this is a different way of saying that yeah the other David King my ears I have a question and just a comment the question is and it's a little bit for other folks too it's like the it's kind of as a challenge I mean it's the degree of trust building an engagement that is required to work effectively with communities in relation to the scale of the problems what we're talking about and sort of kind of a continuing theme when you have on the conference's is sort of that if he is essentially the scalability question about your program and only other questions given the resources that are available so that's this question but just the comment that I wish I had more time to talk to you about was we have a similar program at Cornell called rustic green which is focused on sort of upstate declining communities and part of it is a program called looking subprogram living with water there's a slightly different model it'll be interesting to compare of them were instead of having actors to there's a theater group that that the story circles listens to that and then turns it in it turn and then creates a dialogue for the people who actually were in the stories to recreate themselves in their own play so it's just kind of a subtle version of what you're doing this has a little differences it might be interesting to compare them why don't you take this the scalability question and come up here and have our other panelists come up while you're answering so yes let's follow up on the different models I would argue that we need a lot more experimentation in this science art space and this is one example I really appreciate your comment about trust and I'd say that that um I've been working with Julia for over 10 years we started working on a flood project together through New Hampshire call out of those entities so there's a lot of trust built up there there's trust with the communities that we work in though there was trust Creek from CBI to sort of trust us with this seed money and really let us run with it and so I can't imagine we would have moved forward without having that really strong sort of relationships and networks to start with because it is at least for me it's been a huge leap oh and Trust with power-play when we went to them and we said oh yeah we can we can figure this out we know how to do this and they were like okay we've never done anything like this before thank you so I mean we're gonna take two questions and hope that they can answer both but maybe they'll only get to one so one here and one over there can you just both say that man then well I wanted to ask we have kind of a collection of people here who in various ways are gathering information about what people know and kind of disseminating that back to them so I guess this is directed a little bit of Joshua but but to everybody to what extent do you see to what extent can what do you see is the greatest opportunities and kind of brought us highways for soliciting information and almost creating formative evaluation at the same time so trying to if we're if we're trying to collect what communities know and also be like hey this is climate change and also this be perhaps kind of a testing process so we know what's sticking what's not what people resistant to what people want to throw out what do you see perhaps collectively having been in this panel or just beforehand thinks you didn't get to put in a presentation is the best way forward let's get your question and then answer both sure so this may be hard to believe but there are millions of adults by some estimates in the US who would have real difficulty reading and comprehending some of the graphs and the blurbs that were presented as a part of these community engagement activities so how are you factoring in multiple levels of literacy and communities when you structure your engagement activities excellent questions so the first to adjust the first question around more of the evaluation and different ways to go about that so it seems like in terms of data points that you're looking to potentially collect from around one did the training work our perception is changing is gonna be more on the qualitative side and that's something that we've really I've explored through various needs assessment types interviews of which are we having this train just to have it or is there actually in need and a lot of that surfaces on around learners actually just reflecting back on their own situation so and in these types of interviews that are set up we're able a lot of this information is revealed quite organically by just walking them through their narrative so when we're talking about the scalability of the narrative learning it would be a lot cheaper and cost efficient to have all web-based training but instead we understand the value of collecting those points on site during these learning interventions so that it is worth the expense of the flying trainers out there doing these instructor-led training still so you do capture that narrative that is going on and to adjust the accessibility question it's a very great question what we do right now in terms of economic recovery and housing recovery are courses that are working with at the federal level with the federal government so they have very strict rules around 508 compliance so any type of visualization and 508 compliance is making sure that any of our digital resources are accessible to for example people that might have a hard time managing a mouse for example or our charts are are set up in ways for people that might have difficulty with color schemes and things of that nature so that is on on the forefront especially when addressing public learning needs of this this idea of accessibility as well yeah so I think that's a great question I mean like obviously it's very hard to be engaging with a whole bunch of different people with different levels of ability to read write learn and I think in in terms of what we're doing like we have a lot of visual diagrams that we use in terms of print materials and then we have the actual activity so we emphasize a lot like coming to these events going out into the community being where people are and to utilize that that advantage you know there's to talk to people or use the like the physical activities that we've created in or did she get people to understand what we're talking about or maybe just to explain what we're doing because I think like that in-person interaction is something that's really important that aside I also like being where people are being able to talk is also talk to people on the gun or is also like a big like privilege thing people being attendees events when we're having to spends where we're having those events and who is able to speak what languages those are also really important and so it's definitely a challenge but I think there are different ways that we can really address that through these like various activities and just putting different thoughts into like the time the time we into actually engaging with all these different populations so a great question think you're going good questions I wish we had more time for more so thank you to the panelists really appreciate your time and your expertise and the things that you shared with us and especially all the time that you've spent with people that you're that you're trying to learn from and you're trying to you know be a be of assistance to so I want to thank all of you for being here there is a closing plenary and I'm just going to take the chance to promote it because I'm in it so the closing plenary has bill Sulekha is at Hunter College and also was one of the co-authors of the IPCC 2018 climate change report he'll be giving five minutes of remarks I'll give five minutes of remarks and also John forgive me Sutter John Sutter from CNN will also be giving some remarks so it's planned to start right at 5:00 it surely will not obviously but I'm sure it'll start any minute so I think it's in the big room thanks everyone

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